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That is spelled B-E-E-H-I-I-V.com/trb, and meet with Beehiiv's team of growth and newsletter experts today. 1:16 Thank you so much to Beehiiv for their support. Welcome to, to "The Rebooting Show." I am Brian Morrissey. I'm joined today by Helena Bottemiller Evich. I hope I got that right. 1:27 We talked about me mispronouncing her name, but so let's just- Very close. Let's assume- Let's go. Yeah... that's very close. That's very nice. 1:33 Helena is the proprietor, I guess, we'll get into what the, what titles we're gonna use, of FoodFixx, which is a subscription-based food policy intelligence newsletter that delivers insider reporting and analysis to professionals working at the intersection of government, industry, and public health. 1:49 Helena started this after covering food and ag issues at Politico for nearly a decade. She's won awards. She's even spent some time in the B2B world at Food Safety News. I like that. I love B2B publications. 2:04 I straddle B2B and B2C- I know... proudly. Proudly, yes. 'Cause at Politico, you were part of Politico Pro. Mm-hmm. Right? And so you left to start FoodFixx in 2022. That's actually when we first... 2:18 This is the first time we're, we're talking live, but we, we, we've exchanged emails. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna quote from one that you sent to me, if you don't mind. I love it. 2:26 This is like, this is my Tim Russ- Bring the receipts. The Tim Russert. [laughs] RIP. You said, "I really do think there's something to this creator boom. 2:34 Journalists have been much slower to pick up on it because we don't consider ourselves creators, but it's basically just an editorial-first approach or content-first approach, even though we hate the term content." 2:44 I think you sort of, you sum up the, the distaste that a lot of journalists have for whatever this is that a lot of them are being attracted to or being forced into, which is going off on their own and building their own businesses, which is- Yeah... 3:00 you've been doing for the last three years. 3:03 So start off with what, what led you to, to, to leave Politico for, to, to think there's a lane to do this l- as a, a solo enterprise, whether it's creator or we call it something else? Yeah. 3:18 I, I'd been at Politico for about a decade and really got to know the model there. I helped launch the food and ag vertical they had back in 2013. So I'd been there almost a decade, and I was ready to do something else. 3:34 I'd been covering food policy the whole time. 3:36 Like, I really had owned and loved covering food policy, was ready to do something else, and I basically just came to the realization that no other national media outlet was gonna post the job I wanted. Like, 3:51 I could go try to convince editors at, you know, New York Times or wherever to, like, create this beat, but they didn't see it as a beat that was worth covering or that was important to cover. 4:02 And it was during a time when I think a lot more media entrepreneurs were being really open about how they were building. 4:08 Like, I started listening to all the Morning Brew, you know, every podcast for every, like, media operator I started listening to. And the more I listened as a reporter, like inside the Politico newsroom- Yeah... 4:19 I was like, "I actually know more about how this works than, than I maybe had thought." Oh, yeah. And I would have never considered myself an entrepreneur. Like, never. 4:30 But- Well, that's another term that needs to be retired... it started to dawn on me, it started to dawn on me that I could, that I could maybe do it. And- Yeah... 4:36 I have had readers since be like, "Are you good at picking stocks? Because you, like, picked the perfect topic at the perfect time," because now we're in a Maha world, and everyone's talking about food policy. Yeah. 4:47 And I find this hysterical. But no, I just, I love my beat, I own my beat, and I saw the white space because so many media outlets don't see this as a beat. 4:55 So there's a clear, wide open lane, and I saw it, and I decided to launch FoodFixx. I left Politico right after covering the infant formula crisis. I was really the top reporter covering that. 5:08 Loved working at Politico but just was ready to do something else, and I took the leap, and now I look back and I'm like, "Wow, that was, that was good timing," but I didn't really see where all this was headed at the time. 5:21 But you, you were coming from Politico Pro- Yep... right? And, and that is a B2B arm of Politico that has a high price subscription. So you know people- Mm-hmm... people were already paying for- Yep... 5:34 what you were doing. Yeah, but it's, but Politico, the beauty of it is that Pro really is hybrid because a lot of the top reporters are still writing for politico.com. 5:47 So you have to be able to, you know, write for an insider audience, really know your stuff, do those incremental scoops, and then also be able to zoom out and write for a mainstream audience. 5:59 And I remember being in an all-hands once where our then owner, Robert Allbritton, who eventually soldPolitico to Axel Springer and he said something along the lines of, "Politico Pro is a way to tax the 1% to pay for a newsroom." 6:14 And I will never forget that line because it was really true. Like, basically they were figuring out how to have a really strong business model around a B2B, you know, information services. Like, 6:27 really insidery trade pub- ba- basically a bunch of trade- Yeah... publications, right? 6:31 And then that leveraged them to have the best reporters and these huge teams of reporters that you would never have at other publications. Yeah. 6:40 And then when healthcare blew up or a farm bill blew up, we had the best teams in the country covering these. And so I came to really love that model, and I basically emulate it with FoodFixxed. 6:52 So I'm actually half paid, half free. I have... So paid subscribers get FoodFixxed twice a week, and free s- I have a free list, gets it once a week. Anyone can get it, foodfixxed.co, anyone interested in food policy. 7:04 And, you know, there's a lot going on right now, so. Yeah. Yeah. So just to go back there, w- w- what gave you confidence on, like, the business side? Because I think the, there can be... 7:15 I f- I feel like there's alw- and you, you flicked at it a little bit, but there's, there, there can be trepidation- Yeah... with, on, with the capital J journalists. You're a capital J journalist. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 7:23 Uh. No, I'm a journalist first, second, and third. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Uh-huh. Right? And then there's the business stuff, right? Yeah. 7:29 Which I think some people get, think it's more complicated really than it i- I mean, it's a pain in the ass, but, like, it's, you know- Yeah... the merchant class is the merchant class. 7:38 Yeah, we, journalists, you can become part- We try to just sully ourselves with... Yeah... you can become part of the merchant class, trust me. It's just a lot- Oh, yeah... of, like, thankless work. 7:46 But I think it's intimidating for a lot of- It is... like, journalists. Yes. Just because it's unfamiliar. I was intimidated. I also, though, became a little bit less intimidated as I dug in more. 7:56 So I did a lot of- 'Cause you were like, "Oh, I could do this." [laughs] Oh, yeah, yeah. So I ta- I talked to a lot of people. 8:01 Like, you know, I talked to Anna Palmer and John Bresnahan, who launched Punchbowl out of Politico. 8:07 There were a lot of ex-business people from Politico Pro who jumped on the phone with me and talked me through, like, how things worked. I had a vague idea of how the business worked. 8:16 Politico Pro's a really high price point. I think by the time I left, you couldn't get it for less than, like, $7,000, and that would be, like, a Congressional office, like, the discounted, you know- Sure... 8:26 rate for, for government. You know, so it was really high dollar, and I knew that what I was gonna do was not gonna be every day. 8:34 I was not gonna be on a hamster wheel of breaking news, so I knew my price point was gonna be lower. But I also, I wanted to hit that sweet spot where it's premium, so I'm $500 a year for most people. 8:45 I do a lower rate for government and academia. But $500 a year, you don't necessarily have to have a meeting about that, right? Like, someone can just sign up, get their business to expense it for them. 8:58 And so I tried, I actually spent a lot of time trying to figure out pricing, and basically I realized everyone was guessing on pricing. Yeah. 9:06 I'd, I'd, like, talk to all the business people and be like, "Okay, like, brass tacks, how did you do this?" And, you know, they'd be like, "Look at comps." 9:12 And I was like, "Well, there aren't any comps because I'm the only one doing this." Like, I have- Yeah... this lane. And so I actually ended up hiring- And then go higher. Yeah. Look at comps and then go higher. Yeah. 9:22 In B2B, just go higher 'cause, like, the difference between 300 and 500- Yeah... honestly is not- Yeah. No... I've never heard anyone give me or present evidence that there's any formula- Yeah... 9:32 to these things other than- No, yeah... particularly if you're a journalist pricing your information product- Yeah... go higher because you're gonna underprice it usually as a journalist for whatever reason. 9:42 Yeah, and, like, I, I just, once I realized that everyone else was guessing or experimenting, I was like, "You know, this isn't, this just isn't expertise that I don't have. Like, I can try this too." 9:55 And I went out of the gate and I sold paid subscriptions on day one and was like, "Oh, okay. Like, I think, you know, I think this could work." I had some idea that it was gonna work. 10:06 I did think it r- it was really helpful that I left Politico before Elon Musk bought X. Yeah. And so it was easier to get emails. I had a pretty, you know, substantial following, really engaged following. 10:19 That is no longer really the case, although I have also not quit X, but it was a lot easier to get emails. So I launched with, like, something like 1,700 people on my list, and that was really helpful to get the point. 10:32 Yeah. So. Okay, see, yeah, that, that is always... I mean, that's the kind of, like, quote unquote, "unfair advantage." I mean, it's not unfair- Yes... because it's earned. It is. 10:38 But all journalists, I've been telling all of my friends in media, have an email list. I don't care if you think- Yeah... you're gonna be at your publication for the next 20 years, you should have your own list. 10:50 You should be building some type of, like, direct connection with your audience. Like, you do not own that social anything, and you don't own the connection you have with, within your, your publication. 11:02 Like, you, you know. I'd love to have the list of everyone who has subscribed to my stories, you know, in the dec- in the decade that I was at Politico, but that's not my list, so. 11:10 Yeah, they weren't gonna give it to you. No. Vox gave the list to a couple people, but. That was, I did, I heard about that, and I thought, "Well, that was really nice of them." Yeah, that was really nice. 11:19 I left Digiday, I don't, I, I left behind the, the 140,000 [laughs] email addresses. I had to start from zero. Yes. Yes. But at least, I mean, people knew who you were. 11:29 They knew your name, and, like, that is, that counts for a lot. I'm not ever discounting that, but- Yeah, I started with 3,000 email subscribers- That's-... 11:35 before I sent anything just from, again, thankfully it was still Twitter then, I guess, because- Yeah... 11:41 and it was actually from a Morning Brew, I think it was Austin, but it might've been Alex, that, that said, "Anyone leaving jobs should always, like, get people to sign up to an e- email newsletter 'cause it'll go, you'll get the, like, 'Congrats, congrats,' even if, like, it's done [laughs] like- Yeah, yeah, yeah... 11:54 and, and that, that stuck in my mind even not tr- fully knowing, like, what I was gonna be doing. And it does become- Yeah... it becomes a, a, an advantage. So when you were thinking about, you were gonna... 12:06 Are, are you doing the same work now as you were doing at Politico, or did you- Mm... tweak it because-You're on your own or you, you wanted to be in a different lane? So I would say it's similar in some ways. 12:20 So I think, you know, the subject matter's similar. It's basically the same beat, so I cover like FDA, food labeling, anything consumer-facing, so school meals, the SNAP program, you know, pe- 12:32 n- n- which a lot of people still know as food stamps. I mean, these are huge programs. SNAP serves more than 40 million Americans. Like, there's a lot of fights over it. 12:40 There's a lot at stake, so the, the subject matter is very much the same. The tone is different. 12:45 I would never use first person at Politico, and sometimes I do insert a little bit of analysis that's like, "I remember when Michelle Obama was, you know, trying to get everyone- Mm-hmm... 12:55 to eat something different in the school meals program, and Republicans lost their minds." 12:59 You know, I can insert like a little bit of kind of historical analysis, and it feels more personal, and I just didn't have that relationship with my audience at Politico. 13:08 I get more emails now, or even immediately when I launched Food Fix, I would get more reader emails than I ever got at Politico, even though technically I was reaching way fewer people, because it's just different when it, the person is coming into your inbox. 13:21 Yeah. So it's a highly engaged audience. I very specifically chose to do it twice a week so that I wouldn't get burned out. I was not about to... I talked to Isaac Saul over, you know, I love what he's doing- Yeah... 13:32 with Tangle, huge fan. He doesn't have to do it now every day, but like- But like he does it, but like that was like- I ask that about to Emily Sundberg all the time. I'm like, where- How is she doing that? 13:39 I was like, "Are you burned out?" And she gets like a little defensive with me. She's like, "I work hard." I'm like, "I know it's hard work." I mean, yeah. We all work hard. I just assume that. Yeah. 13:47 So I say that I do it twice a week, but a couple times a year, if I get a really good scoop, I send a special alert, and I call them bonus editions. 13:55 I never promised, the value prop was never to be like the breaking news source, but, you know, like I knew what was in the dietary guidelines first, so... And it's kind of like my Olympics in food policy, right? 14:07 You know, every five years, like the d- every five years the government updates the dietary guidelines. 14:11 They changed it a bit more this time with RFK Jr.'s stamp on it, and I knew what was in there, so my r- readers got that first. But, eh, a few times a year will I do that. It's really meant to be more analytical. 14:25 It's meant to be... 14:27 It's always straddling this line, so you know, my paid readers are getting both editions, the, the one that's subscriber only and the free one, and so both of them have to be valuable and have to be readable. And- Hmm... 14:40 one of the great things I learned at Politico is how to write for both audiences at the same time. So it has to be understandable, not a lot of jargon. If there's an acronym, you explain it. 14:49 My mother-in-law will say like, "I feel like you're explaining the news to me," or like, "You're kind of holding my hand through the policy news," and that's kind of the goal is that it's... 14:58 You know, I have everyone from like CEOs of food companies to like, you know, people who participate in the SNAP program and want to follow what's going on, and so it really is a diverse audience, and I love that. 15:10 I know it's kind of weird to do B2B and B2C, and like most people advise against it. Yeah, no, I want to talk about the... It's, it's- Yeah... it's, it's, it is kind of dangerous to some- Yeah... some way because, 15:20 you know- You're not picking a lane... look, you're charging $500 a year, and if you're explaining what SNAP is, it would be like me, like explaining what c- CPM is, you know, every single time. Well, yeah. Yeah. 15:29 It means cost per thousand, but thousand is mille, and like all this, like, and I'm like, no- Yeah... I'm just, I've just chosen- Well, I will say SNAP's one I don't-... a more B2B lane... 15:36 what SNAP is one I can- And I'm like, people can look up what CPM is if they don't know it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But you don't... I, I feel like you do a good job of not... It's never like too technical- I try not to... 15:45 or jargony that, you know. Yeah. But- But, but I m- I, I wonder because you're subscription only. Mm-hmm. Right? And so how do you- That's the journalist, that's the journalist first approach. 15:57 It's- Yeah, 'cause you're not making money off these other, these freeloaders. [laughs] Not yet. Not yet. I'm, I'm fully onto the business side now. I know. And then so here's the deal. As a reporter, 16:08 I very much respect s- having somewhat of a wall between. And like obviously when it's just you, you can't have a wall. 16:17 The reason I love subscription only, and it's been, you know, I've had enough growth and I've had enough success that I can be subscription only for now. 16:26 The reason I love it is that your incentives are so tightly aligned. Like it is either worth it to pay for it or not. Yeah. 16:32 Like they either are getting the value or not, and that is, you're just a l- there's no crossed wires there. 16:40 And, you know, if someone, I actually haven't had this happen, but if someone hates something and like cancels or, or angry or whatever, that, that's one among hundreds. Like, you know, it's not- Yeah... 16:50 you don't have the appearance of, you know, sponsored by X company. And most of the money to be made where I am is in advocacy dollars- Mm-hmm... advocacy ads, and but these are the issues I'm covering. 17:03 Well, it's a lucrative, it's a lucrative area. These are the issues I'm covering, so it just looks like there's just no way to separate it. And so I've stayed away from that. 17:10 I'm leaving a ton of money on the table, and I know that, and that's okay with me for now because like I, I prefer to keep it simple and to keep the interests of my audience and the business aligned really nicely. 17:24 And for now- Yeah... that's great, so. But I understand the business people generally think this is- No, this would not be-... insane... this would not be a private equity approved approach at all. [laughs] No, no, no. 17:35 Like you got- Private equity, I'm not, I'm not interested... like you've got, you've got influential policy makers. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 17:38 You know, the Washington, DC influence circuit, I'll just put it- Everyone's creating it. Mm-hmm... is very, there's a lot of people who feed at that trough. 17:47 You know, the view from, you do a view from the top segment with someone who has, you know, some lobbyist dollars, right? 17:53 And then, you know, you're interviewing, I don't know, someone at, like a MAHA person, and a bunch of lobbyists come and, and that, that works. That, that, that model works. 18:04 I don't think there's anything wrong necessarily. No. I, I understand the point of, of keeping it simple though- Mm-hmm... 'cause I think that is, is really, that's key. Yeah. 18:13 Because you can go in a lot of different directions. I know. I feel it myself sometimes. Yeah. 18:16 And I, I think I would be feeling differently if II've had really strong year-over-year growth every year that's m-mostly organic, like I'm not spending money on marketing and you know, it's working. It's working. 18:32 So I'm not trying to like make the business model more complex right now, but I am fully aware of, you know- Yeah. Well, that's great... the different revenue streams I could be creating. 18:42 I'm building a platform right now where I can build whatever I want on top of it. I also have, you know, a toddler and a six-year-old, and like there is beauty in sort of the simplicity of what I'm running. 18:53 I have only part-time, I have only part-time help for Food Fix, and so you know, I'm covering the Trump administration. I got little kids. Like, I don't- You got a lot- I don't need to be- Like literally on your plate. 19:04 I got a lot, yeah. Yeah. So how has the growth been? What, what kind of numbers would you, would you give us? I mean, at least 10 to 20% every year. So like, I mean, I am every year growing without... 19:20 And that's including churn. Like I have pretty low, low churn, very, very high auto renewal rate. 19:27 I think only like 4% of my subscribers have auto renew turned off, which is really great, so it's, it feels strong, it feels stable. You know, the biggest- Are you making more than you made at Politico? Yes. Oh, yeah. 19:39 Okay, great. Yeah. Yeah. That's the line, you know? Oh, yes. I think it's, and it's not- I have a, I have a path to hiring people for sure. Yeah. But it's, again- Okay... 19:46 it's like the sim- the, the simplicity of it operationally, I mean, I say that and like, you know, I have like five part-time folks. I'm launching a podcast called American Dish, which people can check out. 19:59 So it's not, I'm not saying it's like simple to run this. There's a lot of moving pieces. You know. Like, you know how like- Yeah... 20:05 there's a lot to coordinate and all of that, but I do try to keep it as simple as possible for the stage of life. And like, it used to, you know, people used to always ask me like, "What are you building? 20:14 Are you bui-building a lifestyle business?" And I'm gonna be honest, I had to Google like, "What is a lifestyle business?" [laughs] Well, I know. 20:21 Because I didn't know, and I found this to mean- And it's, and it's weird, and weirdly- Yeah... it's 90% of the time, 'cause the type of people who use that term, they use it as a pejorative. Oh, 100%. 20:30 And the, and the- I could tell. It was- The rest of, the rest of us are like, "Well, yeah, that sounds amazing." Like, and they're like, "No, no, it's really bad," and I'm like- Yeah... "What?" 20:38 But m- you know what I've come to conclude? Maybe journalism needs a few more lifestyle businesses, because maybe that's more sustainable. I- we're 100%. We're about to find out. We're about to find- we are finding out. 20:49 So- You know, I feel this is why I wanted to have this conversation, to have more of them, is because there's like two worlds in some ways. There is a world of, of decline that's happening in- Yeah... 21:02 the mass media market, particularly general interests. There's protected categories. Bloomberg's gonna be fine. The Wall Street Journal- Bloomberg will be fine... will be fine. 21:10 Politico, you know, it's going through a little... It's gonna be fine. Axios is, is gonna ultimately be fine. 21:15 Like the amount of money that's going into the federal government, I mean, you cover the snaps, 100 billion plus, like I mean- Yeah... these programs are massive. Yeah. 21:23 Like, and people looking to influence them, whether you feed at that trough or not- Yeah, yeah... that trough exists. Yep. [laughs] There's a reason that Pax Semafor, et cetera, are lining up- Mm-hmm, yeah... 21:33 at the trough. And then that's the, that's the biggest problem, not the trough itself. Consumer media is just totally different. Yeah. 21:39 I mean, they, they, they are looking for a lifeline and ju- and, and really scrambling, whereas this is a really interesting area, and I feel like you're a part of, like I call it like expertise, and I feel like some people- Mm-hmm... 21:55 uh, have expertise that as a practitioner, you know, you have journalistic expertise that you're, you're so deeply embedded as like an analyst really. 22:05 I mean, you're, you're, you're more than a really, I, I think of like than a, as a reporter. Like you have like real expertise- Yeah... in this area. I... There are so many success cases in this. It's not like it's easy. 22:20 It, there's a power - Yeah... law in everything in media, right? But it's working for a lot- Mm-hmm... of, of people, right? It's not easy, but there are way more journalists that could be doing this. 22:34 I mean, just out of Politico we've had a fair number of entrepreneurial endeavor. I mean, some of them are scaled, right? Axios, Punchbowl. Yeah. 22:42 Well, Punchbowl's still pretty small, but you know, they have a, a fairly sizable team now. We also had Rachel Bite from Playbook. 22:50 Wait, wait, wait, wait, but like Punchbowl is, is not small on, in like revenue, at least to me. Not revenue. 22:55 No, I think, I think they make like a million dollars from- Well, I would rather be big in revenue and small in people. That's my [laughs] Yeah. Well that's what I mean. 23:01 The, what, what I mean by not scaled is like they're not going after a big high traffic. No. That, that's not what they're going after. They are essential for- Yeah... 23:11 people in Washington, people covering the policy process. I r- I listen to their podcasts almost every day. Like, I love that they're so focused. I didn't understand when Punchbowl launched how that was gonna work. 23:22 I was like, "Gosh, there's so many people covering the Hill," but they saw the super hyper-focused white space of just like Congress, Congress, Congress, hyper-focused. Yeah. And it, it works really well. 23:34 Like if I wanna know what's going on the day, on that day or that week, like that, that is the go-to place. Yeah. And you know, the Washington Post- It's also probably-... has given that up. Yeah. Like, I mean... 23:43 It's, it's probably me of like the like, but I think it's also like, I'll have to talk with Anna or [laughs] 23:49 about it, but like it, it's also a very savvy like business like decision, because it moves- Oh yeah, they're also like 90% ads, not- It moves, but it also, it moves them from being, I mean, from an M&A perspective, because it moves them from trying to compete to be a, a quote-unquote platform business to being additive to someone who already has the platform. 24:07 Do you know what I mean? Because- Yeah, there weren't there rumors for a while that like The Washington Post- Yeah... would buy Punchbowl or something? And that, that- I'm not, I'm not trying to start rumors. 24:14 No, no, no, but that- I think that was a rumor. Yeah... that makes sense because they can be plugged into someone who already has the platform versus trying to build all the functions of a Politico or an Axios. 24:24 You, you're, first of all, you're-You don't have a, a million dollar revenue per employee number to go around with. You don't have the margins because you're spending ahead of... You don't have the scale. Yeah. 24:36 So it may... You have to decide whether or not you're gonna build, you know, what the banker-type people call, like, a platform business- Mm-hmm... which is like you're gonna do it all. 24:45 You're gonna have a sales engine, you're gonna have everything. 24:48 Or if you're gonna, like, prove that you have a, a narrow and deep, and a specialist thing that you can be plugged into, like, a larger, a larger entity if they wanna do that. If they don't wanna do it, that's fine. 25:00 It, it'll be so interesting to see what Punchbowl does. I think they've done a great job owning their lane. 25:06 On that note, I will say, like, and because the Washington Post is trying to get more into this space, I think they've hired some former Politico Pro folks. 25:14 You know, I find it astonishing that The Washington Post let Politico and Punchbowl and all of these entities- Yeah... really own, like, covering the federal government. Like- Generational fumble... 25:26 taking that away from- And there have been a lot of fumbles- Generational fumble... in, in media. [laughs] There have been a lot of fumbles. I still... 25:33 I, I can't even tell you how few, like, food and ag events, house agriculture hearings, you know, whatever, in the weeds, USDA, how few of them I have seen The Washington Post at. They do not treat... 25:46 They, they, at least in my lane, they have not treated it as this, like, beat. You know, USDA is one of the largest parts of the federal government, and it... 25:56 There's just, they're, they really were very focused on being a national paper and kind of, you know, more like The New York Times model, sort of. 26:04 And I just think, I mean, again, I'm not a business person, I just think, like, watching it sort of happen feels like a huge strategic mistake. And now look where we are. 26:13 Like, we have fewer reporters covering the federal government, which is just, like, a bad place to land. So I'm constantly horrified by, like, how few reporters are sometimes at these important events. 26:23 Although it's a little bit different under Maha, 'cause now everything's, like, everything's... There's a lot of attention on Maha. Yeah. 26:29 So now there's a lot of reporters [laughs] at the events that I go to, which is, which is good. I wel- I welcome more coverage. I think it's, I think it's a good thing 'cause it's very important. Yeah. 26:36 I mean, you don't... I don't wanna say you got, like, lucky, but, like, y- it did, it did help that, that RFK got, got, got chosen, right? For sure. [laughs] You're one of the few, like, who gets a Maha bump maybe. 26:50 [laughs] Food po- For sure. Food policy has kind of slowly become more mainstream the entire time I've been covering it. But there is no question that Maha has taken it to a new level. 27:01 And what it's really done is taken it out of this, like, more left coded thing. Like, there was a time when, you know, it was Michelle Obama talking about food policy, and everyone was like- I know... 27:10 "This is the nanny state." And, you know, M- Mayor Bloomberg in New York was, like, literally put in a nanny dress. Like, I can't remember which- Oh, yeah... publication it was, put him on the cover. 27:19 [laughs] So, you know, that is changing now. When, when he tried to ban the soft drinks? I was then. Like, that was- He was trying to ban the Big Gulps, yeah. 27:26 When you go after, like, Coke and Pepsi, like, they come, they come... They were like- But what's interesting is now RFK does not care at all. He bashes them regularly. It's a totally different era. 27:35 And it's almost like Nixon could, was the one that could open up China. Like- Yeah... 'cause you couldn't call him a communist. [laughs] It was like the right's now, like... They're like, "Screw soda." Yeah. 27:45 It's- "We're not doing that," and Snap. I mean, it's wild to watch. It's a real... 27:48 There's a super interesting, like, political realignment that's happeni- happened at the same time that it's, like, become more mainstream. So it's a really interesting political story for me to cover- Right... 27:59 because there's a ton of policy implications, but also I'm watching these, like, fascinating realignments happen. And I can see it because I covered the Obama era. So, like, I have the luxury- Mm-hmm... 28:11 of focus in that way. Like, I have all this memory of how- Right... this shit went down, right, because I was there. And so it's been really helpful in that way. And, and that perspective 28:22 really helps because I think when we're in the moment of, like, great change or realignment, because we're, we're... it's not only daily, it's, like, minute by minute, like- Yeah... 28:32 that we lose sight of how massive the shifts have been l- in, in all kinds of areas i- in politics, where y- when you go back 15 years, you're like, "Wait a second, this was a major issue for the other side." 28:48 Like, I mean- Mm-hmm... this is, like, really shocking- Mm-hmm... changes in a lot of these areas that sometimes I think because our politics have gotten so tribal that- Yeah. 28:58 In short term, the cycle, like, the memory- Right... is sh- so short term. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just the, the fact that, yeah, I... There's, there, there are so many different areas of this. 29:07 So what, like, percentage of your subs- your audience is people who read Food Fix for their jobs? So I have about a 10% conversion rate from the pay- or for the, from the free list to the paid list. Really? That's great. 29:24 Yeah. I'm very proud of that. But I think part of it is that if you're signing up for a food policy newsletter, you're already a little bit more prone to, like, working in the space. 29:36 Or, like, a good example would be, like, you know, someone who's a food lawyer or someone who works at a regional food bank. Like, they might have a budget for media, and so they, they might get it. 29:48 And then it's also, like, you know, people who work on Capitol Hill and who, people who work for the government and people who work at trade associations. So those, that paid list is mostly people who work in it. 29:58 There's some random people who are just, you know, have money to burn and are really interested and wanna, wanna read it, but it is mostly people who work in it. 30:07 The vast majority of paid Food Fix readers are getting it expensed, and they're renewing year over year because it's just, like, a part of their, part of their jobs. And the most churn I have is people switching jobs. 30:21 That's- Yeah... the biggest thing. And they'll, they'll send an email being like, "I'm gonna resubscribe. I'll li- you know, as soon as I get on my new email." So I... It's sticky. It's a, it's a habit. 30:30 You know, I hear from people all the time. They're like, "I, like, wait for it to come. Like, I s- you know-"I open it when it comes in, right? It's like a, almost like an event. 30:39 That's not everyone, but there's- Right... definitely some, some loyal readers who, who read it right when it comes to their inbox, and it's been great. 30:47 I mean, I knew there was white space because I, you know, saw that the other media outlets weren't seeing this as a beat. So... And even trade publications. 30:56 There actually isn't a trade publication that just covers food policy. 31:00 There's a lot of really great agriculture, like, production side trade publications, so they're much more focused on, like, farm subsidies and conservation programs and sort of, like, the other side of USDA, like the more the production side. 31:13 So I don't really touch that stuff at all unless there's a big MAHA fight over it. Like today I was writing about pesticides, but that's because there's a big MAHA fight and there's other implications to that. 31:23 So, you know, the food policy side, there just isn't. Like, sometimes Food Dive or these other verticals will touch on it, but it's not, it's not their focus, so. Do you think of going- I kind of have the lane to myself. 31:36 Well, do you think of... 'Cause I always think, you know, it seems like you're very disciplined about this. Like, you know, be- but, you know, when you, when you reach, 31:45 I don't know, it's like content market fit, right, you think about, okay, well, how do I expand the aperture? You know, you add in- Mm-hmm... and there's a lot of different, you know, ways to do that. Adjacent. Yeah. 31:55 Mm-hmm. How do you, how do you think about that or is that just something you, you wanna s- stick to, like, food policy? You, you don't wanna build the, like, you know, the food industry publication? 32:08 I'm still kind of deciding. I mean, I get this question a lot. Like, what are you building, right? 32:12 And this used to really stress me out because I didn't really know, and I've come- 'Cause you thought you should have an answer. I always thought- Well, yeah... I was like, "I should have an answer." Yes. Right? 32:19 Like- Let me make something up on the spot. [laughs] I feel like, well, I'm really... You know, it's working. I'm considering what, what to do. 32:24 And I've started to be less stressed out about this because, like, I'm building this very sustainable platform, this upon which I can either s- stay the course and build a really strong, loyal- Yeah... 32:38 Food Fix audience and keep building it brick by brick and that's great and that's a success, or, like, there definitely is space for Food Fix to be broader, to, like, have, you know, I see other niche lanes that are kind of adjacent that, that would work. 32:55 And that's just a different, that's just a different path, right? And I can have either. But you have the optionality. I have optionality. And I feel like a lot of- Yep... outside people who haven't been down this path 33:07 don't quite understand that, like, optionality is really important- Mm-hmm... to people like you, people like me. 33:15 Like, I mean, having that, having those options i- is, is really valuable because going out and going down your... You know, you're a small business owner, right? And like- Mm-hmm... 33:27 I don't, I don't wanna speak for you, but you probably didn't think that you would be, like, a running your own business when you went into journalism. No. No. 33:34 Um, and listen- I'm also an accidental journalist, so, like, there's- Yeah. So there-... a whole other [laughs]... there's lots of stuff happens by accident. Yeah. Yeah. 33:41 Um- But, like, you know, the having optionality I feel like- Yeah... is doubly valuable. 33:47 And s- and, and I think it's underrated, I feel like, to a lot of, I don't wanna say, like, business people, but, like, the, the people, you know what I mean. Like, they are- Mm... the, like, the business-minded people. 33:58 Oh, I know. Yeah. Because usually they're playing with other... They're, usually they're using other people's money. Mm-hmm. They're gonna make a ton of money one way or the other. 34:05 And, like, you left Politico and you're like... I mean, I don't know. Maybe, maybe you didn't have to get the health insurance. But, like, you know, you've got all kinds of things. Oh, health insurance is a nightmare. 34:15 Yeah. [laughs] You know? You've got two kids and you got- Mm-hmm... like, bill- and, like, you know, you don't, you're not guaranteed anything when you s- when you start your own business. Like, you start from zero. 34:25 You're, you're not, you're not guaranteed anything, and that was scary. But, you know, it's interesting. I always felt like I had a lot of job security at Politico. I was really good at what I did. 34:36 I won them a bunch of awards. I know I made them a lot of money because our team was excellent, and they were selling really expensive subscriptions. So, like, I, I could have stayed there. I had a great job. 34:49 I, I felt like I had job security. That wasn't why I left. But n- what's weird now looking back is I realize I actually have more job security now. I have m- control over my destiny as a reporter. 35:02 I get to still practice journalism, hold agencies to account, and do a lot of the same things. There are... 35:08 I certainly miss, you know, my, having great colleagues and there's a lot of, you know, bells and whistles and tools and stuff that a newsroom has that I do not have. But it's, it's honestly been 35:20 great, and I wish I had done it sooner, honestly. 35:23 The control, the having the option of, like, going in different directions, choosing who I work with, like, picking editors who make me smarter and are a pleasure to work with. 35:35 Like, these small things that I didn't really think about have been great. Like, and I think there are some upsides that I, you know, I wasn't doing it to have more job security. I didn't think about it that way. 35:48 But I think in the end I ended up realizing that it made a lot more sense to do this in a lot of ways, which is just so crazy for me to he- it's even crazy for me to hear myself say that because I would have never thought that I'd be someone who would launch a company. 36:04 Like, I just wouldn't- Mm... wouldn't have thought that. So it's been a great journey, and I'm really actually glad to see a lot more reporters going down this road. 36:13 I understand many of them will be going down this road against their will, right? They're not necessarily... I think because of all the uncertainty it's gonna force more people to do this. Yeah. 36:23 But, but many of them will succeed. Not all of them. Not all of them, but many of them will. And I think there is a future where there are more small... 36:32 You know, you're either gonna do it on expertise or maybe you're big scale. Obviously, like, the Don Lemon models is different. But people are making it work. 36:40 And you hopefully will have a whole stable of journalists who are stillYou know holding power to account, fact-checking, and like running solid stories- Mm-hmm... using that model. 36:53 So I think it's gonna be part of the equation going forward. Yeah. So the, the, the email I, I referenced, you talked about you w- you didn't consider yourself a creator, you know? 37:05 And I d- [laughs] it probably doesn't line up with, with the work you do, right? But we don't have... I guess you're just like an independent journalist and not like too hung up on- Yeah... on, on labels. 37:17 Do you feel like you can be as ambitious journalistically as you were within Politico? That's a good question. So 37:27 I am not doing 5,000-word magazine pieces with like amazing graphics that took t- a team to create. I'm not doing those anymore. I could be partnering with other, you know, media outlets. 37:40 Right now it's more of a bandwidth thing. I am still, though, holding agencies accountable when they, you know, when their actions don't match their words. Like, I mean, I do that often. 37:52 So I think it just takes a different format, right? 37:54 It's much less the typical article format, and it is like a very traditional newsletter format, which is a little more voicey, a little bit more informal, but I still view the function of it to be similar. 38:09 Like, it has to be informative, it has to have original reporting, and, you know, I've been in this space long enough that like most people will pick up the phone when I call now. You know? Mm-hmm. 38:20 Like, maybe they won't be on the record, but like I've really been owning this beat long enough that I'm able to write from like a place of authority that is, is not only helpful for me to run a business that way, but it's helpful for the audience. 38:33 Like, I get a lot of feedback. People say it makes them smarter in their meetings- Sure... which you always like to hear. 38:39 It makes them understand what's going on better, and that's sort of the goal is that you're informing people and trying to, you know, I guess shine some lights where, where you can. But certainly it's different. 38:54 I'm not writing, you know, these big takeout pieces. And I think places like Politico are struggling with whether or not to do those stories anymore. Right. 39:03 Like, at all, because it takes a lot of resources and you're not getting the same ROI that you once did, so... Yeah, it doesn't make sense on a spreadsheet [laughs] for a lot of... 39:14 I mean, this is just the reality- Yeah, yeah... of the business. And I think one of the knocks of this decentralization, particularly when it comes to journalism- [laughs]... 39:22 is inevitably, I mean, I'm part of it, like, you know, the, the economic incentives are to do less reporting. They, they are because you're, you're so stretched thin, okay, that... 39:34 And look, we, we, we've all been through this with the aggregators and whatnot. Yeah. Like when- Yeah. You know, they... I- it was like, oh, you like... I would hate, like I... 39:43 We would like work really hard on like a story under- uncovering something at like Digiday and then like Business Insider would just- Rewrite it... like put it into a s- slideshow, and I'm like, "That's a rip-off." Yeah. 39:54 Yeah. And I, I get that like, you know, there's people who do podcasts, you know, like me. Like, and, and I'm not doing a lot of the original reporting. 40:02 A lot of the incentives in the, what I call the information space, are to, to, to stay on the analytical or, if you're in politics, on the, the, the opinion- Mm-hmm... and then the shouting and the level. 40:17 I mean, I think that, that connecting the dots when done well is, is a, a, a, is... I guess it's broadly like journalism. But I think on the hard core- Oh, it's helpful. Yeah... reporting, it's... That is the knock. 40:29 Like, whether or not this decentralization will... Th- one of the trade-offs will be far less reporting. 40:36 Like, for instance, there was this controversy, I don't know if you saw, with the, the, the Cleveland, like- Yeah... as The Plain Dealer like editor- Yeah... 40:42 who they were saying to reporter interns that you're just gonna be reporting, gathering thing, and then you're not gonna be doing the writing. Like, the writing's gonna be done through this AI process and whatnot. 40:55 And a lot of people were outraged, and I kinda got that. You know, I'm a writer- Yeah... I guess spiritually. But at the same time, I was like- Yeah... realistically, 41:05 I- it's better for a reporter to be reporting than, than writing. I mean- Yeah. I mean, I, I agree with you. I, I, I do think that I've been somewhat helped. I mentioned I was a accidental reporter. 41:15 I didn't go to journalism school. I, I wrote my thesis on food policy, and that's how I fell into reporting. It was kind of random. You know, I was interested in the subject area or subject matter first. 41:27 So I did not grow up wanting to be a reporter. I don't have the same romantic attachment or like nostalgia for like the old way of doing things, like the newspaper. 41:38 Like, you know, a lot of, a lot of people grew up who wanted to be a reporter since they were like five, and they have this very specific idea about how things should work. I am thankful I don't have that. 41:47 Like, I view reporting as super essential to like a functioning democracy. So important. Journalism is very, very important, but I don't have that like romantic- Yeah... sort of this needs to be done this certain way. 41:59 We have to have print, whatever. I had a mixed reaction to that as well because I think that journalists need to be focused on what humans can like very uniquely do that AI cannot, and that is to call people, 42:14 other people, and talk to them, figure out what is actually going on, talk to them off the record, talk to them on background, like figure out what is actually going on. Go interview people on the street. 42:23 These are things that, you know, the robots can't do. So we should be focusing on like what can we do? No one should be spending their time rewriting stories, rewriting press releases. 42:32 Like, I think that that era is gone. Yeah. So we do h- we have to adapt, we have to change. 42:36 I get the knee-jerk sort of like, yikes, that is a scary idea that the machines are like deciding which quotes are in or not, but like that probably is the way the world's going and like we need to figure out how to do it responsibly.How to have the right editors. 42:52 I mean, even AARP is using AI to edit, like, recall notices. Like, uh, like you go to their website, AARP's like, you know, has some of the biggest scale in media. 43:03 People don't realize this 'cause there's so many people that- Yeah... belong to AARP. 43:07 And you know, A- AARP is using AI to edit, like, recall notices because, you know, everyone, b- especially the elderly who their immune systems are not as strong, like they need to know about recalls. 43:17 So they're using AI to rewrite those. Well, when I started my career at Food Safety News 15 years ago, I was rewriting recall notices. There's no... That's not something reporters probably should be doing anymore. Yeah. 43:31 Unless you're adding some original reporting. And so we are gonna have to adapt. We're gonna have to change. We need to lean into what humans can uniquely do. 43:39 I will say though, I have learned that people love the curation and aggregation, and it's weird. 43:45 I've, I've actually expanded the, like, what I'm reading section in the newsletter because I got so much feedback that it was so helpful, and I do think probably eventually that will just all be done by AI. 43:56 Like, but people freaking love it. They, they're overwhelmed with information. Yeah. And as a reporter, I'm like, "This isn't original. I'm not writing this. Why do you people want, you know, why do you want this?" 44:06 And but- Yeah, I stopped doing it- They, they want the guide... 'cause I was like, I was like, "Oh, this, like, what... Shouldn't machines be doing this?" But maybe, I don't know. Like- I have- Yeah... 44:14 I have a human help me do it because it- Yeah... you know, and we really take time to think about, like, what should be in and what should be out. So maybe that is- So you do-... a uniquely human thing. Yeah. 44:23 So you have like five people- But that's at the bottom. Yeah... like working, like part... Like so what- Yeah... what do you... Like who do you have what, like, like which functions? So I have two editors. Wow. 44:33 I have a podcast manager. I have a VA and an editorial assistant, and then I have really part-time tech help, like basically like a on-call, like if something. But I will say, I use Memberful to... 44:45 This is not a plug for... Uh, now this is not paid plug for Memberful, but I use Memberful to, to monetize the, the site, and they have a really great, really great team, and they're super responsive. 44:55 And, like, so I also have a lot of, if anything ever gets weird, I have a lot of help from them too. So you know, it's a pretty lean operation, but you know, it takes... You know this. 45:07 I'm not gonna learn how to code anything. I'm just not gonna do that. Well, you don't need to do that anymore. [laughs] Well, but, but I don't even know how to not code and make stuff. You know what I mean? 45:17 Like, that you have to learn how to do that. So- I think the bigger, I think the bigger decision is on the business model side, right? Yeah. Is like you, you don't- Yeah... you're, you don't have ads. 45:26 You don't do events, right? And like those are- Not yet. I probably will eventually do events. Yeah. Okay, 'cause that's the... I think those are like the questions because that- Mm-hmm... 45:34 is where the complexity- Yeah... comes in. Yes. Yeah... is because when you have, when you have clients, you've got an entirely different business. I was- Entirely. I'm aware. Yeah. 45:45 I, I spend 80% of my time on things that have nothing to do with the content. Yeah. I believe that. And energy focused. And you've got a lot of events and webinars, and, like, you got a lot going on. Yeah. 45:56 [laughs] That's why I thought it was- I think about that. I'm like, gosh, his calendar. It's stressful. One thing I, we do have set up- That's why I'm very jealous of your model. 46:04 [laughs] Well, we, I wanna get into institutional subscriptions, which is more complex to set up. 46:11 I actually have the tech, I have the tech built to do this, but running the process of institutional subs is a different thing, right? You're talking more high dollar. You, you got contracts involved. You have some tech. 46:24 Like, there's IP th- uh, you know- They have to be sold though too... it just, it's more complex. Right? Yep. Yeah. Because, like you- So it's- Everyone wants things bought, and just- Uh-huh... 46:33 very few things are bought. Like, most things are sold. Like, subscriptions are bought, and the reason I think- Mm-hmm... 46:38 that journalists were very attracted to models like Substack is because- You don't have to do anything... they didn't wanna sell to anyone. No. And I, there would be like- I spend no time selling. Yep... 46:47 there's, there's the church and state thing, but really they didn't wanna sell. 46:50 Like, there's type of people, and when I tell this to, like, people who are, like, salespeople by nature, like, I'm like, "There, you know, there's a lot of people out there who don't like to ask other people for money," right? 47:00 And they're like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "No, seriously." [laughs] Ah. "I'm one of them." Like- Yeah... there, there's a lot of us- Yeah... out there. Yeah. 47:06 And I think a lot of journalists don't like, don't, don't like- Yeah. I don't really send marketing emails. I do... [laughs] I know. People are like- [laughs]... "What is wrong with you?" But I do- I'm the same way... 47:14 you know, in every free newsletter- I think it's a personality type. The free, the free newsletter is, like, top of funnel in a way. 47:20 Like, so it's, I always have at least two blurbs in there that are like, "You know, you're missing out if you're not getting the paid edition," and- Yeah, you're good with the consistency. It's, yeah. 47:29 We- it's, but it's not where I'm not hitting people over the head with it. And also I have, like, if someone is on Snap or WIC or one of these- Yeah... federal nutrition programs, they can get it for free. 47:38 They just email. And yeah, it's working. So for right now, we're- Okay, so you-... we're working with it. Yeah... you're adding a c- a podcast. Mm-hmm. And what job does that- It's called American Dish. 47:50 Everyone should go listen to it. American Dish. Yeah. It's a little bit more consumery, I felt like, than, than- Yes... I was expecting. So, so talk, talk to me about that. So American Dish launches March 4th. 48:01 The idea for the podcast is a little bit, is a little bit responding to the moment we're in. So I've been doing this for a really long time. 48:08 I've been covering food policy for, you know, more than 15 years, and now all of a sudden everyone is at my party. Like, everyone's talking about food policy. 48:16 We've got all the, you know, there's all the wellness podcast people. There's the manosphere. There's the Silicon Valley biohackers. Like, everyone is now coming to this in different ways. 48:26 And so I am trying to take a step back and have it be a little bit more consumer-facing. 48:31 Like ta- I'm sitting down and talking to some of the smartest people in the space to zoom out because so many people are getting their information now from these, like, super short clips that are super alarmist or black and white or really, like- Mm-hmm... 48:43 oversimplified. And so, you know, being the policy reporter I am, I'm like, let's d- let's go into the nuance. Let's, like, dive into it more. And also we're gonna pull short clips out of it, and I refuse to make real... 48:56 We don't really do social media as, like, a focus other than LinkedIn because again, the whole point is to get someone on the free list and then hopefully eventually convert them to paid. 49:06 I am not randomly finding those people on TikTok. Like, that's not-You know, and you don't own that channel. 49:12 So it is a little bit of a play into experimenting more with social, but I have found that podcasts appearing on them in any way, like it's a much more evergreen marketing thing. 49:25 Like people will find the podcasts from like interviews I did years ago, 'cause they might be searching a particular topic. And so part of it's just an experimentation of like another way to market without marketing. 49:38 And also I find podcasting very easy compared to writing the newsletter. It's just- Yes... you know, I know the people. Yeah. I listen to both your podcasts. I feel guilty as I- No, it's good... 49:49 I do more podcasting, 'cause I've always, I always thought about it as like soft- I listen to both your podcasts... soft retirement for writers once they got too tired. 49:56 That's why, that's why there's so many middle-aged men doing podcasts. [laughs] It's hard to set up. I will say I've spent like a lot of time on the like pre-launch. 50:03 Like setting it up is a lot of work, like way more work than I think I understood. But the actual act of doing it is... And it's very natural for journalists too, 'cause like we're curious, we have a lot of questions. 50:14 I know a lot of these people, so like, you know, it's easier for me to get bigger names to come on just because I know I've been in this space for a while, and so... But it is a little more B2C. 50:25 I- I'm not initially monetizing it. I probably will eventually, but we'll see. Like, I don't want anything... Anything that is monetized on the podcast will not have a like a direct conflict. 50:36 So if anyone wants to like sell knives or like [laughs] you know, something that's not anti like farm bill or whatever their thing is, right? Like- Don't take this the wrong way. You just- Come talk to me. 50:49 Even though you're an accidental journalist, this is such a journalist approach. I know. Oh, I know. It is like- I make no apology for it... it's like selling- You know what? 50:56 I don't have any of the answers to- Selling ads is a, is- is horrible and it's so hard. 51:00 And then like a journalist is like, "Not only am I gonna sell, sell ads, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna tie both of my arms behind my back and be like, 'I have this super valuable niche and instead I'm gonna sell it to the Ginsu knives people instead.'" 51:14 [laughs] If you're listening, I am open. I'm like, I will not be covering anything related to, I don't know what their issues are, tariffs related to materials, whatever. Like, I'm all for it. 51:25 So- So talk to me about that. Yeah. So you're just like totally anti-ads then. I'm not anti-ads. I'm anti-ads that present a conflict or that appear to present a conflict. And- Is it because you sell them? 51:37 Why don't you just have someone else sell them? Yeah. I could have someone else. But like it's just, it's, there's just not a lot of distance and it's still my name that goes in your inbox. Oh, interesting. Yeah. 51:48 One day when it maybe isn't my name, just going, when it's not as much of an individual, if I go that direction, then that's different. 51:55 I- Have you decided if you wanna go that direction or you- you haven't decided it sounds like? I think I probably eventually will expand with more people, but I do not have like an immediate plan to do that. 52:06 You know, we'll see how it goes, but- Is that a, is that- Again, it's the chasing the toddlers, covering the Trump administration. Yeah. Like, yeah. And so that's a complexity thing. And also- Yeah... 52:16 I think one of the things is- Yeah, I think having full-time employees is a different, is just a different equation. Did you manage people at Politico? Mm-mm. Okay. I mean, I mentored a lot of people. Yeah. Okay. 52:26 But that's different. Yeah. No, it's different. [laughs] It's different. Yeah. It's different. Mm-hmm. I think a lot of people in this area struggle with the first hire. Yeah. 52:34 And I don't mean- Oh, I think it's really hard... I don't mean fractional. I don't mean like- Yeah. Yeah... you know, part-time people- No... getting a podcast producer. I mean the first hire. No. Yeah. Yep. 52:41 Do you have a full-time person? No, I only have fractional. Yeah. Yeah. I, I tried. I- I went down the path of like a full-time hire and I didn't, it didn't, I didn't love it. Like it'd be... 52:49 And not, nothing against the person, but like- Well, it's hard because what you need is so many different things. Right. It's hard to think about what that role is. Yeah. 53:00 Weirdly in media, media needs more business, uh, not... It's weird because like generalists, really bad, tough area when you're a journalist. Mm-hmm. Generalists on the business side of media, really valuable- Mm-hmm... 53:16 at least to me- Mm-hmm... and to, to you and to other people. Mm-hmm. Because like you, you have real needs that are not full-time jobs, and a lot of people- Mm-hmm... have narrowed and become specialists in such an... 53:31 Too much in some ways- Yeah... because you need them to do three different roles. Yep. And a- at least what I have found is not a lot of people can, can do that. Yeah. I, I guess that's like natural. 53:44 And so you end up going to a fractional approach because otherwise the reality of this, these models is a lot falls on you. Like you just can't outsource- Mm-hmm... you know, the, uh, stuff. Like, you know- Yeah... 53:58 like, I'm sure like if, if- But this is part of why I don't do ads is that I am aware of like the operational, like, setup needed to do that. I mean, vaguely, right? 54:10 [laughs] And it is more, it's more work to show the, the, you know, the impact of those a- it's just a whole other workflow that I don't have and it's really nice to not have it. 54:22 What I am seeing happen, which I think is great, is there's more businesses, consultancies, whatever, kind of springing up to serve kind of like you and me. Like- Mm-hmm... 54:32 whether it's like PR targeted to more like solopreneurs or, or even just journalists really specifically, like looking at event planning, like live podcast setups. 54:43 I, I'm seeing more of that start to happen, and I think that there is a real space for that. 54:47 Like, you know, maybe you don't have a full-time events person, but you have like a go-to agency or small consultant group where you're like, "Oh, th- these are my folks who I bring on," and maybe there's like an arrangement every time.That's different about how you make that work. 55:04 Yeah, that's the, that's the infrastructure But I, I really think that's missing. Yeah. To me, that's the infrastructure. 55:07 Like, infrastructure is not just technology, and the tech people will pr- will pretend it's, it's just technology platforms. But the reality is- Yeah... no media business is primarily journalists. 55:19 Journalists are a minority of those- Yeah... businesses. Now, why is that? Because- Yeah, they're viewed as cost centers instead of like- Right... producing the- There, there are some things that like- Yeah... you know. 55:27 But like the, the, the reality is there's a l- the publishing function is far beyond... There's a lot of people there doing a lot of different things. Mm-hmm. 55:38 And when you go to a very lean independent model, you have to decide which of those things you're gonna do because you're going to need infrastructure. And, you know, I think that... And I... 55:51 And there's a lot of people who are trying to build these kind of things that are basically a shared services- Mm-hmm... 55:59 model where you can tap into a shared services for growth, for, for sales, for events and for, for other things because it is, it is a lot. Like when- Yeah... you start to add clients, like you add clients. 56:15 Like, I mean, that, that, that comes with obligation. It just doesn't come with like money. Like, you gotta [laughs] like you gotta serve the clients, you gotta- Yeah... do the reports, and you've got to... 56:26 And the reality is a lot of the monetization outside of subscription is not turnkey. It starts- Yeah... to look like an agency. It starts to look like a content- Yeah... studio. Yeah. 56:38 It starts to- And that's a lot of work on your plate. Yeah. Yeah. So I admire your- Thank you... discipline. 56:45 Well, it, I think the fact that I'm still growing gives me some more runway to like push those decisions off, right? But we'll see. We'll see when, when the business- Yeah... hits a wall if I still feel that way. 56:59 Well, it's impressive- But, yeah... that you haven't hit a subscriptions wall because usually- We haven't, yeah... people who go down your path hit that wall after a couple years. 57:07 It's like the first year, it's like amazing. Yeah. It's growing, it's great and everything. And the reality of any subscription business that I have seen up close- Yeah... 57:16 is you hit a wall, and then it becomes incremental, it becomes optimization tactics. Mm-hmm. And guess what? That's a lot more like specialized work- Yeah... that a lot of like- Yeah... 57:27 journalists don't, haven't done before. 57:30 And you're- Oh, I'll, I'm gonna be consulting people when we hit that because I, yeah, I don't have an interest in spending time on that either, and I think knowing that is part of, is good, right? 57:41 I feel like I'm not gonna learn how to do that. I'm gonna find someone to do that. You know, do you know what your total addressable market is, your TAM? 57:47 I had to like Google all these things, right, 'cause I was not an entrepreneur. I realize that's also a made-up number. 57:53 I mean, I, to me- I don't- To me the, the, the, the TAM stuff is, is, it's done for investors, it's made up, and it's- I will tell you-... it's always far bigger than it really is. Yeah. 58:03 Like, I mean, I look at- All the media biz people were trying to tell me how to calculate this, and I was like, "This is not something I can calculate." 58:10 Yeah, and your pro- your, your time is probably better spent like making stuff- Yes... that's valuable than- Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] And but I, I don't think I've hit... 58:19 Like, there's still room to grow, so we'll keep truckin' along. Yeah. It's... And then, you know, we'll see where this goes. 58:27 I think Maha has like ripped open a new kind of dimension of food policy and like it'll be interesting to see where that goes- Yes... next. So we'll see. For sure. I think that... 58:40 Just one, one la- final question on, on the Maha stuff and, and your, 'cause we, we've talked all about the business stuff, but I eat, and so I'm interested in this. 58:49 Can you tell me why those of us who like go take trips to like Europe and whatnot- Yeah... why, and I'm sure you've gotten this question. 58:57 I mean, it's kind of like for me, like, you know, being close to the ad tech world, getting asked- Mm-hmm... 59:00 like w- are, are they listening to us on our phones 'cause I swear to God I got an ad right after we talked about this or that. Mm-hmm. Why do, why do we feel better, feel fine? 59:08 We'll eat pasta all, all week in, in Italy and stuff, and we'll feel like light as a feather, and we'll come back here, and we feel bloated. And- Mm-hmm... 59:17 I feel like their Maha has taken off because we keep being told that it's not, "No, no, no. It's because you walk more." And like everyone's like, "You're just lying to us. You've gotta be kidding me." 59:27 [laughs] So, I mean, the truth is we don't know. Okay. Like, no one is in- We don't know... incentivized to answer that question. Like, who ha- who has the financial incentive to answer that question, right? 59:38 It is so common, though, to hear that discussed. It is so common now that Republicans are praising Europe, right, because of how- Yeah... much better they feel when they travel there. 59:50 And that honestly is something you he- That is one of the driving narratives of Maha is that Europe's food is better than the US. 59:57 I mean, they, they do have a more precautionary regulatory system, so there's just a lot of things that they just don't allow, like additives and they're- Yes... it's, they're, they're more cautious, that's for sure. 1:00:09 But everyone- Fanta tastes different in Europe. It does- Well-... different color... it has different ingredients. It has different ingredients. 1:00:13 And it's different ingredients, and I constantly feel like United States corporations are serving us... I'm gonna get all conspiratorial here. Go ahead. Go for it. 1:00:21 They're serving us crappy, crappier food and crappier products than they are in Europe. You go to a Starbucks in Europe, it looks totally different than the ones here. Mm-hmm. 1:00:29 You go, I'm like, "Why are we getting the crappy stuff, crappy food?" Like, we can't even make butter that tastes right. Like, and I don't understand. We have a lot of cows. Mm-hmm. 1:00:38 Why does Europe, why does, why does butter taste completely different in Europe? The regulatory system is totally different, and also it's cultural, right? 1:00:46 Like, in Europe, they have a much, generally, they have a much stronger attachment to, like, local and regional food. Mm-hmm. And like, I mean, God forbid you call sparkling wine from California champagne, right? 1:00:58 That's true. Like, th- this, there's a lot more- Like, towns in Italy have, have their own pasta. Uh-huh. So part of it's culture, but we actually don't know. 1:01:06 And, like, this is one of my soapbox, the soapboxes that I always get on.We, there are so many questions about nutrition and health that we have never studied because there isn't a lot of federal investment in it. 1:01:19 So like we don't actually know why people eat more calories when they eat processed food. 1:01:25 Like we don't know the answer to that, even though most of the American diet is now ultra-processed, and now everyone's talking about ultra-processed food. 1:01:30 We like lack basic science around some of these questions, and everyone always asks the Europe thing. Right. Like, because you hear like, "Oh, is it just 'cause I was walking? Am I less stressed? 1:01:41 Are people around me less stressed?" 'Cause they are. They seem like they're enjoying themselves, right? So what is the food? What... Is it stress? W- Maybe it's all the above. 1:01:50 Maybe all those things are working together, that you're on vacation, you're walking more, you're less stressed, and the food is different. I mean, this is a study that could be done. 1:01:58 There is actually Todd Wagner, who I think was business partners with Mark Cuban, does a lot of work in this space, like food additives, and he was actually... 1:02:08 The reason he got into this is because he would have migraines in the US, and they would go away when he went to Europe. And he was just like, "Are you kidding me?" Like, "Something is not right." 1:02:19 And he's actually like helped them pass like additive bans in California and like is working on this, and it is, uh, precisely because of that personal experience. Yeah. 1:02:28 And like we don't have the science to back it up, but like anecdotally, people get really fired up about this, and like, you know- Yeah... I, I, I don't, I never like- I do... dismiss someone's personal anecdote. 1:02:40 No, I'm not. Well, enough people have them, and if you have enough experience with it, you're like, "This is, this is real. This is true." Well, you're part of MAHA now, Brian. Yeah, no. I don't know if you knew that. 1:02:51 Forget about the Mexican Coke. Like, I want the European Fanta to be here because it tastes like fruit juice more than just- Mm-hmm... like whatever it is like here. Yeah. I don't get... Yeah, so that's my request. 1:03:00 Well, I will say for people who are not in the weeds of MAHA, mostly right now we're doing a vibe shift. 1:03:05 They're extremely anti-processed foods in their rhetoric, and they're, they are, some states are banning soda from SNAP. But we have not had regulatory change yet. So like that's very TBD. 1:03:19 Like MAHA really does not like ultra-processed foods. But if anyone out there's wondering, like have we banned anything or what, we have not. So we'll see, Brian. We'll see. 1:03:27 You gotta tune in to Food Fix if you wanna- Okay... figure out what's, uh, coming down the pipe. When you do the European Fanta episode, have me on as like a- There we go... little cameo. Yeah. 1:03:34 I'm putting it on the list. That's a great, that's a great podcast episode. All right. Thank you, Hallease. [laughs] Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Appreciate it. Thank you so much. [outro music]
